tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7748546794339601451.post8662234604123617371..comments2024-02-16T11:28:01.863-06:00Comments on Moore Perspective: New Testament "Believers"amerikiwihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03392673888503758721noreply@blogger.comBlogger2125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7748546794339601451.post-10571831596061603522013-07-27T22:05:57.381-05:002013-07-27T22:05:57.381-05:00Thank you for your observations. Jesus affirms in ...<br />Thank you for your observations. Jesus affirms in John 3:5 that the requisite for entering God’s kingdom is twofold: “born of water and spirit.” Jesus does not describe the new birth as “water, which is the Spirit” but rather “born of water AND spirit.” There are two elements here, not just one.<br /><br />At the time of Jesus’ conversation with Nicodemus, water baptism is clearly integral to the ministries both of John the baptizer and of Jesus and his disciples (John 3:22-23; 4:1-2). You say that John’s baptism “is the baptizing the reader is familiar with,” but when the Fourth Gospel was penned, Christian baptism was a firmly established practice with which the reading audience would certainly have been familiar. The baptisms prior to Christ’s death, burial & resurrection were preparatory for the approaching kingdom (Matt. 3:1-6; John 3:1–4:2); thereafter baptism remains a fundamental component of the Christian system (Matt. 28:18-20; Rom. 6:3-5). Incidentally, this baptism is administered not by Jesus himself but by his disciples. <br />Irrespective of how one might interpret “baptizing with the Spirit,” water baptism cannot be divorced from the gospel scheme of redemption (Acts 2:38-41; 8:12, 36-39; 10:47-48; etc.).<br /><br />The Greek word pneuma can also refer to the human spirit, which is how Jesus uses the word in the next chapter (John 4:23-24). The balance of inward conversion and outward obedience has always been necessary in one’s response to God (Matt. 15:8-9; Rom. 6:17; Jas. 2:22; etc.). One’s spirit or heart must be born anew with the accompaniment of doing what the Lord says; and even if pneuma in John 3:5 is a reference to [the Holy] Spirit, this is in conjunction with (not instead of) water baptism (cf. Acts 2:37-41; 1 Pet. 1:22-23; etc.).<br />amerikiwihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03392673888503758721noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7748546794339601451.post-69871008092867804842013-07-27T10:48:57.206-05:002013-07-27T10:48:57.206-05:00Believing in Jn. 3 certainly includes obeying (wit...Believing in Jn. 3 certainly includes obeying (with 3:36 making this clear best of all, in most translations). But whether Christian baptism is part of this obeying in Jn. 3 is not so clear. In 3:23, where water is next mentioned (after 3:5), it is about John baptizing; this is the baptizing the reader is familiar with from Jn. 1. In 3:22 Jesus and his disciples are baptizing also, which is associated in 4:1 with making disciples--with 4:2 clarifying that Jesus himself did not baptize.<br /><br />Jesus' baptism has already been described by John the Baptist has a baptism with the Spirit (1:33), a contrast with John's baptizing with water (1:26,31)--a contrast found also in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke. Later, Jn. 7:39 says Jesus will give (baptize with) the Spirit after he is glorified (by death and resurrection). So this baptizing in Jn. 3 (by John and Jesus' disciples, which included former disciples of John) is still like John's baptizing; it is not baptizing with the Spirit. In 7:37-38 Jesus uses the metaphor of living water to portray the "drink" or Spirit he will give to those who come to him and believe in him (and alludes to this "water" he can give in Jn. 4 with the Samaritan woman).<br /><br />So it is possible that the water of Jn. 3:5 is another use of metaphor for the Spirit, to help Nicodemus understand this "begetting" from above, which Jesus also portrays in 3:8 with "wind" (pneuma), and then speaks of the Spirit (as what the wind portrays). In 3:6 Jesus again focuses on the Spirit as the begetting from above, after his words about water and Spirit in 3:5.<br /><br />The use of water as a metaphor for the Spirit (from above) should have been understood by Nicodemus ("the" teacher of Israel) from such passages as Isa. 32:15 ("until the Spirit is poured upon us from on high"), Isa 44:2-3 ("the Lord who made you, who formed you from the womb . . . will pour water on the thirsty land . . . will pour my Spirit upon your descendants"), and Ezek. 36:25-26 ("I will sprinkle clean water upon you . . . a new heart I will give you, and a new Spirit will I put within you").Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com